“We had to meet with a lawyer and ask, How do we protect our marriage? If we don’t know if our marriage will be recognized, what steps do we have to take? We got legal documents saying that, yes, we can visit each other in the hospital, Yes, we can be decision makers even if our marriage is no longer recognized.” — Sam, from Washington State.
Welcome to another post asking, Is Anyone OK?
We interview regular people, asking who they are and how they feel their lives are going.
Today, we’re talking with Sam about coming out to his father, and the joy of handing over keys to first-time homebuyers.
This is an ongoing project from Social Cohesion Lab. To get more info about this series, click here.
If you would like to be interviewed, click here. If you’d like to learn to be an interviewer, click here.
Sam
Sam, 41, is a realtor living in a mid-size city in Washington State, which feels like a small town to him, having lived in Maryland near DC, and Chicago. He, and his husband Mark, love the Northwest, but Sam struggles with how they are perceived as a couple. Through a lot of hard work, they have built careers which make them feel financially secure.
I take pride in being a good friend. I love meeting people. I’m a chatty person. I’m the person at the office who makes the rounds every day saying hello to everyone. I try to be someone that can listen, someone that can help. I definitely would put myself on the ‘people pleaser’ side of things.
I have a really solid core, a big group of friends that I’ve known since I was ten years old. But then, I’ve also moved a couple of times. I grew up in Maryland. In Maryland, a lot of people, their next step is New York, stay on the East Coast. I didn’t want to do that, so I went to Chicago where I knew nobody and met a lot of amazing people. From there I moved to Indiana for a year and a half, and then made my way to Washington State. Moving has actually been a great way for me to gather friendships.
I lived in Maryland for the first 26 years of my life. The move to Chicago, a big driving factor was I had come out. I had, you know, told family and friends that I am gay and for me, I felt I needed to just start anew. Because you live your whole life one way and then it’s a big change. So it was like a fresh start.
The move to Indiana was because I had gotten engaged and my now husband was finishing up a grad school program at Notre Dame. And then he got a job in Washington State, so I came along. And we have really settled down here and have been here for nine years now. I’m about 3 hours from Seattle, close to the Oregon border.
The coming out process in Maryland, it kind of flipped my world upside down. You have this built up fear inside of you. And I was older, you know. My sister was the first person that I spoke to and she wasn’t bothered at all, she was very supportive. The harder part was probably just breaking it to my parents. My dad, you know, born in the fifties, the initial reaction was not the most positive.
At the time I had been living at home just to save up money and in preparation for what could happen. And then it was kind of encouraged that I find somewhere else to live. So then the move, I had no job in Chicago. I sold my car just to have extra money to pay rent. I think that a big part of the excitement for me was, I’m going to move with nothing and make something of it.
I think the move was a true defining moment; I was like, people are going to meet me for the first time as I really am. And I think that was a really freeing feeling, a brand new beginning even at 26 years old, which is hard to truly feel.
When I moved to Indiana to be with my now husband, I worked for a radio station and did advertising sales. My husband got the job in Washington and real estate was something that always interested me. But it was hard to jump into because you don’t necessarily get a paycheck right away
I’m lucky in the fact that I hope that this is my last job. I have found great success in it. I found a passion in it. I feel like I’m doing what I’m supposed to do.
The first question that a lot of people ask us is, if we plan to have kids. It’s something that we had tried to do at one point with a surrogate, it just didn’t work out.
But, we have two really good friends in Minneapolis, and my husband actually was the donor for them. They had their baby in June and that’s been a really cool experience because they do want us to be involved. They came to visit with the baby recently and we’re going to Thanksgiving with them. We didn’t necessarily create a family, but now we have this kind of alternative family dynamic, which has been a really fun, unique experience.
It’s a lesbian couple, both from the south, very religious, heavy Southern upbringings. Mark met one of them through grad school. They were at Notre Dame together for grad school and became best friends. They were workout buddies, you know, study sessions together. And so when it was time for them to try to start their family, we were the first call.
The process started as just monthly visits, you know, trying to get her pregnant. And it worked on a second try, but unfortunately that one was a miscarriage. And so it took about another year before it really worked, but we did have to go the in-vitro route and go through a sperm bank and everything. We were all in, we were all committed to it and wanted to see it come to fruition.
One of the wives carried the other wife’s egg and Mark’s donation. So I was just the cheerleader. For me there was a lot of excitement in making this work and being able to, you know, be part of helping someone else realize their dream of starting a family. But there was also a lot of fear for me in how Mark would react, meeting a child that has his DNA, like, Will you be able to meet this child and just say goodbye? I think he’s done a really admirable job of having that distinction of, you know, My role is to help them create a family, and that’s what I’ve done.
Sam, how are you doing right now?
I think there’s my compartmentalized, day to day life, where I am very busy and at times stressed and sometimes anxious, but in a weird way that just kind of plays into my success. And then I think on the broader scale of things, I think fearful would be a great word. You know, we are a gay couple in a very, very conservative area. So there’s the fear of, you know, being out in public. There’s the fear of, what’s the government going to do next? My overall feeling would be kind of fearful of what’s to come.
It seems like your relationship is something that is going well?
In most aspects of life, we’re just both open books. You know, there’s nothing that I would ever feel I need to hide from him. And I am grateful that he feels the same way.
We also just enjoy having fun together, right? We’re always looking for new activities. Right now we just got those paint by number kits and we like to have a glass of wine and we sit down at the table together, we’re both painting, good conversation, it’s just a time to connect.
Has your relationship with your parents improved since you initially came out?
There was a bit of a healing process. And a big part of that is, I’m not hiding anything. For my father it was really hard, you know, when first coming out. But I think he just kind of had a stereotypical idea of what that would look like. And through time he has seen that it’s okay.
He actually took the time to apologize to me. I mean, probably 11 years after the fact, we had gone to visit my parents, it was a summer trip. It was probably the second day of the trip. And Mark and my mom had gone outside, I think they were looking at flowers and plants and stuff. And we were making breakfast and he just said, You know what, I have to get this off my chest. He was like, I’m really sorry about the way I reacted. I realize how incorrect I was, in imagining what this would be, and we love having Mark as part of the family, and we can’t imagine it without him.
That was nothing I ever expected him to do or even considered happening. That was a big moment and a surprise to know that he’d truly come full circle. And now we talk on the phone probably two, three times a week, I would say this whole process made us closer than we’ve ever been.
Once it happened, I was like, Wow, maybe I did need that, it really lifted me up.
When we started, you said you take pride in being a good friend. How does friendship fit in your life?
We actually just had this conversation recently with some other people. They’re like, how many different people do you talk to in a day? Probably 10 to 12 on any given day. For the long distance friends, anything that reminds me of them, you know, I don’t just think about it, I act on it.
A lot of my friends have kids now, so I’ll check in, see what’s going on with their kids. For the people that I’m around, it’s really just making sure that it’s never a one-sided relationship where people are asking us to hang out, but we’re not asking them. I’m ‘the more the merrier’, I have a fire pit in my backyard and I’m like, hey, it’s Friday evening, open invite.
I feel good when people check in on me, so I like to know that I can make other people feel good by checking in on them. I do remember my mother in my elementary years, stressing the fact that, Nobody’s weird, they just have their own personalities. She was like, Be nice to everyone and that will get you far in life. I think there is no truer advice that I’ve ever received in my life.
It translates into my work life. I’m in a very service-oriented job where I’m assisting people make probably the largest purchase of their life. I get to hand people keys when they buy a home and see the joy on their face.
Financially, do you feel satisfied?
The last four years have gone in a very positive direction. My husband has a great job, he’s in management now. And that’s kind of the steady guaranteed income, whereas I’m commission-based. But I’m at the point now where I built up the clientele, I work for a fantastic company that supports us. And so yeah, I would say financially we are very comfortable.
We bought a new house this summer, we can travel, do things that we enjoy, not have to truly worry. So it’s a very different from where we started, you know, when we first met. But it was very intentional. It was a lot of hard work and tracking spending for many years.
I grew up middle class. My parents, I think they worked extra hard because neither of them went to college, so they knew they had to make up for it. My dad worked two jobs until he was 70 years old and was probably working 50 to 60 hours a week the whole time I’ve ever known him. And my mom worked full time my whole childhood.
My dad managed a lumber store. He worked there six days a week. And then on the side, he actually designed kitchens. He was constantly going out on appointments, getting the measurements for cabinets and kitchens and meeting with people.
Now that he’s retired, he still plays pickleball and then he goes to the gym to do some lifting and then he has guys over to play pool in the afternoon. So it’s just who he is.
How do you feel about where you live?
I love being in the Northwest, but in a perfect world, I would be in a different part of the Northwest. We’re close to a lot of things that we love, but it’d be nice to not have to worry about, you know, going out in public together or… politically, we are very much not in the majority.
I wish I didn’t have in the back of my head, like, Would somebody do something to us, would somebody try to hurt us in public? Nothing has happened but I think that’s the hardest part, you feel like an outcast in the area you live. Like, we could never just, hold hands in public, and I think there’s a sense of jealousy in the fact that we can’t do stuff like that.
I sometimes let that jealousy turn into anger, but also, the part that kind of messes with me internally is the fact that when I am working, I just don’t really talk about myself. I make sure I ask questions that gear everything towards them. Because it actually could cost me business and money if I am open about who I am. You kind of never really stop hiding who you are. Or if you are comfortable with the people, you never stop coming out. And I think that takes an emotional toll for sure.
Then there’s also a sense of guilt where, you know, I’m talking to people and they will say like, What’s your favorite restaurant to go to with your wife? And I’ll overlook the wife part. I’m not denying Mark or my love for him, but I also feel like I’m being protective. And I think that’s kind of an emotional struggle to find a balance with.
We’re in a highly, highly religious area as well. I feel like a lot of times, Christianity is being used as an excuse to be hateful rather than to be good.
I’m really intentional about interacting with people and forming a bond, and I’d like to say getting them to like me before they find out, because I think if somebody establishes a relationship with you and they enjoy being around you and talking to you and being your friend, and then they completely switch because of that information, it tells me everything I need to know about that person, right?
I’ve seen people become a little more standoffish, just kind of shocked by it or something. But it kind of works in two different directions, because there’s also the people who are like, Oh, I’ve always wanted a gay best friend, so we’re going to be best friends. And I’m like, Well, I have to like you as well, you know? (Laughs.)
Are you and your husband aligned on how you present in your community?
Very different. I’m very safe and a little more closed off, whereas he is the Treasurer of our Pride Foundation in the area. They put on the Pride Festival every year. He’s more like, We’re going to make sure that we’re celebrated and that we’re recognized and, you know, creating a safe space for those that need it. I support that fully, but I’m kind of hiding a little bit because it could cost us a lot of money.
A lot of the LGBTQ community is very young here because there’s not much for them to do or resources that they have, so as soon as they’re old enough, they leave. So we don’t really have a strong friend group from that community.
And I mean, politics right now is kind of scary. We had to meet with a lawyer and ask, How do we protect our marriage? If we don’t know if our marriage will be recognized, what steps do we have to take? We got legal documents saying that, yes, we can visit each other in the hospital, Yes, we can be decision makers even if our marriage is no longer recognized. That weighs heavily on you; you think you’ve built this life that you’ve wanted, and now there’s this dark cloud over you that’s saying, Yeah, maybe they can erase that.
Are you or your husband politically active in any kind of way?
Not really. I mean, active in the fact that we always vote. But I’m not necessarily a protester. I would like to be more engaged, but I need to figure out what that looks like because, again, it always turns back to work, I guess that’s what’s instilled in me. I am more of a public facing person, you know, there are signs out there with my name and my phone number on them. I feel like I need to be a little more careful when all of my stuff is public. So I do tread lightly that way.
If I asked you to rate how you’re doing, on a scale of 1-10, what feels right to you?
I give myself a strong eight.
I think that I’m a very calculated person and I think that we’re truly hitting our stride. And I think we are thriving and moving in a really positive direction here. So, yeah, I think an eight because there’s always room for improvement, but I would say I’m genuinely happy and proud of, you know, what I’ve been able to create.
What good advice from the mom. I tried to raise my own girls that way and they have embraced it fully. I learned that from my parents without them ever saying so - they were socially curious and tolerant and welcome, even if fiscally conservative and very probably voting Republican most of their lives (never a thing that was really “spoken of” in New England yankee families, along with money, sex or religion). 😉. I really enjoyed this story, relate to it in many ways despite not being gay myself, and want to share it with friends. So relatable. Thank you both/all.